We are a small, amateur theatre (144-seater) with a fairly conventional sound system (MDs, CD, tape, mixing desk and up to 6 speakers for music and effects). When running sound during performances, I have always been jealous of the lighting guy sitting next to me who, once all his hard work has been done, just has to watch the show and press ONE button for each lighting cue while I need several pairs of eyes and hands cueing up tracks, setting faders, selecting outputs and keeping an eye on the script at the same time. Now that I have discovered SCS it looks like my time has come! Congratulations on a good, practical and affordable piece of software which I now have on my home PC for evaluation. I've tried hard to break it but no luck so far
To use SCS at the theatre, we'll have to buy a PC. I'm sure SCS will run happily on a laptop, given the minimum requirements you specify, but are there any reliability or sound quality issues? Only reasons for considering a laptop are smaller footprint and the ability to unplug it and take it home to work on. We will also need a decent sound card and the M-Audio Delta 44 looks suitable.
Any comments please?
Forgive me if these are naive questions but I ain't no sound engineer and my theatre sound roots are in vinyl and quarter-inch tape.
Getting started
Well, to take your last point first, you won't be able to squeeze a M-Audio Delta 44 into a laptop, if you decide to go that route. With my Toshiba laptop I am using a M-Audio Firewire 410 which works very well and has 8 analogue outputs. This means that you can, for example, have FOH L&R and 6 effects speakers. These can be fully addressed, if you use the correct channels. I am using SCS Professional.
I use the set-up a few times each year at a civic hall (multi-purpose venue), where we cannot alter their set-up much. Most recently the 410 was plugged into 8 adjacent line-ins on the desk and the show music routed to FOH L&R as usual; the 6 effects outputs were take from the desk's direct outs, as the auxes were either dodgy or being used for the loop etc. At the other end of the multicore the amps and speakers, and powered speakers, were scattered round the stage (for FlatSpin). Because the venue can be used for other things during the day, even in show week, it is essential to be able to check quickly that any replugging or level changes have been restored. For this I prepared a sound file in the show folder with a 1kHz test tone (at -3dB to avoid deafening everybody) which I allocated to eight hotkeys, one for each channel. At soundcheck someone can walk the stage checking that each tone comes from the right place. My usual mistake was to forget to bring up the main faders for FOH.
Using the laptop has worked well. I have also used the internal soundcard in smaller venues for a simpler show. Here the quality is obviously dependent upon the card. There has been an issue with internal laptop cards and versions after 8.2.5 which Mike has descibed elsewhere on this board. His solution, which I have been trying out for him, seems to work. Incidentally, if you decide to go the Firewire route, note that current advice is NOT to hotplug but to power down card and computer before connecting.
It is important to disable screensavers, Windows sounds and power management, as described in the Help file, as well as paying attention to the file structure if you are moving between computers. Even if you do this, if the soundcard is different (or you run the laptop with/without the external soundcard) SCS will throw up an error and it is necessary to respecify the physical sound devices used with each device name used in the cues. If you have been logical in naming and specifying the channels it doesn't take long.
This is the third such program I have used and it is the best so far. For the additional facilities I think it is worth going for the Professional version. Go for it!
Malcolm
I use the set-up a few times each year at a civic hall (multi-purpose venue), where we cannot alter their set-up much. Most recently the 410 was plugged into 8 adjacent line-ins on the desk and the show music routed to FOH L&R as usual; the 6 effects outputs were take from the desk's direct outs, as the auxes were either dodgy or being used for the loop etc. At the other end of the multicore the amps and speakers, and powered speakers, were scattered round the stage (for FlatSpin). Because the venue can be used for other things during the day, even in show week, it is essential to be able to check quickly that any replugging or level changes have been restored. For this I prepared a sound file in the show folder with a 1kHz test tone (at -3dB to avoid deafening everybody) which I allocated to eight hotkeys, one for each channel. At soundcheck someone can walk the stage checking that each tone comes from the right place. My usual mistake was to forget to bring up the main faders for FOH.
Using the laptop has worked well. I have also used the internal soundcard in smaller venues for a simpler show. Here the quality is obviously dependent upon the card. There has been an issue with internal laptop cards and versions after 8.2.5 which Mike has descibed elsewhere on this board. His solution, which I have been trying out for him, seems to work. Incidentally, if you decide to go the Firewire route, note that current advice is NOT to hotplug but to power down card and computer before connecting.
It is important to disable screensavers, Windows sounds and power management, as described in the Help file, as well as paying attention to the file structure if you are moving between computers. Even if you do this, if the soundcard is different (or you run the laptop with/without the external soundcard) SCS will throw up an error and it is necessary to respecify the physical sound devices used with each device name used in the cues. If you have been logical in naming and specifying the channels it doesn't take long.
This is the third such program I have used and it is the best so far. For the additional facilities I think it is worth going for the Professional version. Go for it!
Malcolm
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Mike Daniell
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I have a M-Audio Delta 44 in my desktop PC and the audio quality is excellent, but as Malcolm points out this is not suitable for a laptop as it includes a PCI card. But if you go with a desktop PC then I can recommend the Delta 44. As with the firewire, always power down before connecting the breakout box. BUT if you want to use your 6 speakers you'll need to go to a Delta 66 or higher. If I were starting from scratch I'd get a laptop and the M-Audio Firewire 410.
Mike
Mike
(Firewire 410)
I'm also using the FW410 and a Laptop (Dell).
I have been generally happy with it, but here's some caveats to consider:
-unbalanced outputs. Not a deal-breaker, perhaps, but you must be prepared to address that; sooner or later (I bet sooner) you will *need* a balanced connection into your mixer. I have a couple of transformer-based boxes to isolate and balance my outputs and they work really well. If I connect directly to the mixer, 5 out of 10 times I have substantial noise, and the remaining 5 are not completely clean. Transformer isolation is the only way I've gotten a truly clean quiet feed from the FW410. This is (I think) mostly a problem with laptops and there is much grumbling on the Net about Dell's problems in that respect. A box with balanced outs is apt to be acceptably quiet in more situations, but I'd still invest in a couple of isolation boxes.
-the connectors are not solidly mounted and with intensive use you can expect problems if you are not careful. One of my headphone outs is dodgy (after 2 years of use), and I'm hoping I don't get problems with the outputs as I can feel them flexing a bit when I insert the plugs. Again, not a deal-braker, but I'd look at other boxes to see if they are better built. This thing should have the connectors mounted on the chassis.
other than that, it is a good box, the headphone outs are clean and good sounding, and m-Audio has good stable drivers (I've used/owned Delta 1010, Delta TDIF and Delta66). If you get a Delta 66 or 44, be aware that the spacing of the outputs is too close to fit the regular Neutrik TRS connectors, you need Switchcraft (they are slimmer). I think Neutrik has a new slim version but I haven't seen it.
eduardo
I have been generally happy with it, but here's some caveats to consider:
-unbalanced outputs. Not a deal-breaker, perhaps, but you must be prepared to address that; sooner or later (I bet sooner) you will *need* a balanced connection into your mixer. I have a couple of transformer-based boxes to isolate and balance my outputs and they work really well. If I connect directly to the mixer, 5 out of 10 times I have substantial noise, and the remaining 5 are not completely clean. Transformer isolation is the only way I've gotten a truly clean quiet feed from the FW410. This is (I think) mostly a problem with laptops and there is much grumbling on the Net about Dell's problems in that respect. A box with balanced outs is apt to be acceptably quiet in more situations, but I'd still invest in a couple of isolation boxes.
-the connectors are not solidly mounted and with intensive use you can expect problems if you are not careful. One of my headphone outs is dodgy (after 2 years of use), and I'm hoping I don't get problems with the outputs as I can feel them flexing a bit when I insert the plugs. Again, not a deal-braker, but I'd look at other boxes to see if they are better built. This thing should have the connectors mounted on the chassis.
other than that, it is a good box, the headphone outs are clean and good sounding, and m-Audio has good stable drivers (I've used/owned Delta 1010, Delta TDIF and Delta66). If you get a Delta 66 or 44, be aware that the spacing of the outputs is too close to fit the regular Neutrik TRS connectors, you need Switchcraft (they are slimmer). I think Neutrik has a new slim version but I haven't seen it.
eduardo
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Mike Daniell
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Oops! Thanks for the tips, eduardo. I assumed the 410 had balanced outputs since the Delta series has balanced outputs. But that's not the case. I know several users have the 410 and are pleased with it but if I have a choice I will go with a device that has balanced outputs. Transformers and DI boxes can certainly help, but you still have an unbalanced connection between the sound card and the transformer or DI box. If you use this approach keep the unbalanced leads as short as possible and try to keep them well away from mains power leads.
Unbalanced outputs have not been a problem for me, even with a 2M snake around the control room. I agree that the sockets are a little flexible. As I mentioned, I am using a Toshiba (M30-604).
I think that the key word is investment. If you need 8 outputs the choice of external soundcards is a bit limited and some cost substantially more, so that you may have to pay for balanced outs and sturdier construction.
Malcolm
I think that the key word is investment. If you need 8 outputs the choice of external soundcards is a bit limited and some cost substantially more, so that you may have to pay for balanced outs and sturdier construction.
Malcolm
It's been almost a month since the last reply on this thread, but I thought I'd ring-in on the topic of external sound cards. I have two Edirol products the UA-5 (3 yrs) and FA-101 (1 year) and have been very pleased with both as they have been reliable and stable with my laptop (HP Pavilion). I use them for live musical theater recording and general audio playback into a theater sound system. I understand they now have a unit with a built-in compressor/limiter on each channel, but haven't had time to check it out. For live recording this is essential and if you are going to various locations, having it built-in would be great.
I've been meaning to add a final note to this thread for a while now to say thanks to everyone for all your most helpful input. In the end, we have gone for a desktop PC with the M-Audio Delta 44 card. This is to be a permanent installation and you get more for your money with a desktop - the problem of limited space went away when we thought about it more carefully because the processor goes under our bench and a standard keyboard and flat screen take up little more space than a laptop anyway.
I know the Delta 44 only has 4 outs but for most productions that's all we would need. When we do need the other speakers it's easy enough to re-route through the desk (Soundcraft LX7).
I've run some tests and demos and the sound quality is fine even with (temporarily) unbalanced connectors - we'll make up some balanced leads before we go live although the breakout box is right next to the mixing desk so runs are short. Thanks to Eduardo for the tip about the Neutrik connectors - I checked them out and they do indeed have a slimline version (the X-Series) - haven't tried them yet though.
We go live with SCS next month - a song and dance show by a local group who typically turn up with about 30 tracks which would normally take me for ever to re-record on to MD - not any more. Each of their 4 performances will be a different selection of tracks in a different running order - dead easy to reorganise with SCS.
Martin
I know the Delta 44 only has 4 outs but for most productions that's all we would need. When we do need the other speakers it's easy enough to re-route through the desk (Soundcraft LX7).
I've run some tests and demos and the sound quality is fine even with (temporarily) unbalanced connectors - we'll make up some balanced leads before we go live although the breakout box is right next to the mixing desk so runs are short. Thanks to Eduardo for the tip about the Neutrik connectors - I checked them out and they do indeed have a slimline version (the X-Series) - haven't tried them yet though.
We go live with SCS next month - a song and dance show by a local group who typically turn up with about 30 tracks which would normally take me for ever to re-record on to MD - not any more. Each of their 4 performances will be a different selection of tracks in a different running order - dead easy to reorganise with SCS.
Martin