Global 'level trim' edit function (in 10.3.0)

[john-tapas]

Hi Mike

Have you considered having an Editor function that allows you to adjust all cue levels by a given amount?
I have just run a show and found that one cue could not be played loud enough, without lifting the mixer levels.
It would have been great to have an editor button that allowed one to reduce all cue levels by say 6dB, and then turn mixer up by the same amount to give the extra headroom needed for the loud cue.

Cheers

John

[jkowtko]

John, that's what the Master fader is for, no? You can change and save the default level of the master fader in the Editor, Production property sheet. For convenience I define my key mappings for the master fader controls as:

, (whose shift key is '<' so it looks like a down key) level down
. (whose shift key is '>' so it looks like an up key) level up
/ level reset
m level mute

It makes a nice master fader keypad on your keyboard, very easy to access, and close to but clear of the arrow keys. Our MD ran the Aida music tracks this way and used the master fader heavily throughout the musical numbers.

-- John

[john-tapas]

Hi John

I see what you are saying, but as I had used the default setting of Max for the master I had nowhere to go.
I may consider using a default master set lower, but until you run out of gain there is no way of knowing by how much to reduce this!
There is a conflict between always wanting to use the highest levels you can to minimise noise and leaving a margin for the unexpected.

This situation is perhaps aggravated by the fact we do not have our own theatre, so for each new production we;- rig gear, get 1 tech, (At which point hopefully we discover our problem) then 1 Dress and the next day we run the show! After that we move on to the next production. Life on the edge!

Cheers

John

[jkowtko]

John, there should be no "noise" in a digital system. The volume level of each playback track is simply "added to" the master volume level, and then also "added to" the output device's level setting, to determine the final volume at which the audio track is played from the computer.

If you're setting your audio file cues to a very low volume and maxing out the master fader and audio card, then you should balance them out. If I need bumping headroom I will set the master fader to -6 and run the audio cues anwhere from -10 to 0 depending on how loud the source material is.

In a few cases the music tracks provided to me were too low in volume to boost to desired levels with SCS, so I had to edit those tracks in Goldwave and increase the volume substantially (Goldwave has a "max volume" feature).

-- John

[john-tapas]

Hi John

Whilst I agree with most of what you say I suspect we are talking at cross purposes regarding levels.

There will be noise in audio output card and the following mixer.
So one would normally avoid setting operating levels too low.
You are suggesting -16dB (-6dB on master & -10dB on track) assuming the tracks are normalised to 0dB. (Some might consider this a bit too much.)

Great, but when my normally conservative director wants a bomb blast to be some 20 to 25dB higher than any of the other tracks in the show, then suddenly I cant turn it up enough in SCS!

i have done four or five shows with SCS using the default settings of -3dB on the Cues and NO master (SCS 9) and all was fine. But then non of the other shows had one VERY loud cue.

Other objection is that your solution requires manual use of the master fader. I rather lean to the view that if one is to have an automated system then lets automate everything.
I have a gain control on the desk that I can turn up but I need to remember to turn it down again for the next cue. All this remembering I would rather leave to SCS. It seems more reliable than my memory.

In hindsight my use of the term "Headroom" was also perhaps inappropriate. I was not concerned that we got to a clipping point, simply that having made a choice of starting point for the "Digital" gain (-16dB in your case) then I am stuck if I need more than that.

What do you reckon?

John

[jkowtko]

John, I think it's all just a matter of preference on how you want to set up the program.

The BASS mixer, as I understand it, maxes out at zero attenuation. SCS uses the individual cue levels combined with the master cue level to provide a combined attentuation to the BASS driver for a given audio file that is playing. (For playlists there is one additional level of attenuation provided -- individual audio tracks vs the playlist volume).

So you are asking for the ability to reduce ALL cue levels at the same time.
- If you are doing this during an Editing session, because you originally set all of the cue levels too high in the program, then I agree a single operation that would adjust all cue levels in your program by the same amount would be handy.
- However if you are wanting to do this at run-time, then that's really what the master fader is for ... it applies an additional adjustment on top of all cue levels in the program.

The only thing the master fader doesn't do is run above the 0 mark. Mike could have easily set the fader scale to visually go to +10 ... but since the BASS driver isn't an amplifier that would be misleading. So if you want to think of the master fader going to +10, then treat -10db on the master as your zero mark, and set it there on all of your programs. That should produce the outcome that you're looking for.

Fyi, not sure what audio card you're using but on my PA system my audio cards will reach ear-splitting levels long before you can hear any floor noise on them. I originally bought M-Audio Revolution cards, but could in some cases I could hear the noise hum from the card because of the unbalanced connectors and the consumer (-10dbu) output levels. Once I switched to the M-Audio Delta cards (balanced connectors and professional +4 dbu output level) that noise floor effectively went away. It's still there, and I can solo and turn up the input gain quite a bit to hear it, but at those levels any reasonably loud audio file played through the card would blow out the theater. So if you are using a consumer card, then this could make a big difference for you.

Mike, please correct me if any of the above info is wrong.

Thanks. John

[john-tapas]

Hi John

- If you are doing this during an Editing session, because you originally set all of the cue levels too high in the program, then I agree a single operation that would adjust all cue levels in your program by the same amount would be handy.

This was the big issue for me. Having entered some eighty odd cues, and then having to adjust them all by the same amount it struck me as a good idea. It may not be an issue from now on, as I shall set default fader positions lower, and work from there.

The sound card I use is a "Cr...... ..... .....er" (Sorry to swear on this forum, but it was all my budget would stretch to.) Need to keep the bulk of my pension for keeping the alcohol flowing! I have M-Audio Delta unit on this years Christmas list. Many thanks for the debate.

Cheers

John

[Mike Daniell]

Mike, please correct me if any of the above info is wrong.

100% correct, John. Couldn't have explained it better! Many thanks.

It shouldn't be too difficult to provide an editing feature to adjust all the levels in a cue file, but to do the job properly really requires a new window. By 'properly' I mean that if you want to, say, increase all levels by 3dB then SCS should warn you of the cues that already have levels greater than -3dB, so you can decide whether or not to proceed with the change. The issue is that as increased levels would be capped at 0dB then decreasing the levels 3dB after increasing the 3dB could result in some cues ending up with a lower level than they started with. This new window I'm referring to should probably also allow you to select which cues you want to apply the level change to, with 'select all' and 'clear all' options.