I am new to this technology stuff so please bear with me. Upon looking over your product it looks GREAT !!!
I am interested in purchasing the Professional version. My situation and questions are as follows:
I am a roving sound designer for several theatres in the area and I would like toinstall this on my laptop so that I can take it around with me and set it up at each theatre. Of course all the theatres have different setups.
First question is can I ouput several signals. ie left/ right house, center house, left/right rear house and certain monitors on stage and route the signals to each speaker. use for this would be sound effects coming from different sources and creating surround sound and moving effects. How do I then control where the signal goes ... ie connecting to the sound board. What are the output formats ie xlr/ 1/4 " etc.
Second question is regarding Midi sending and Midi Input port and output port. Are midi signals used to control only lighting or anything. Could a theatre that has the capability to send midi signals from the stage manager send midi signals that control the sound cues- so that say there would not have to be a sound operator. Sound cues could be started from that computer and routed through mine.
Please excuse my ignorance but I am looking to move into the digital age after 25 years of ancient designing
laptop use and general questions
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Mike Daniell
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With SCS-Professional you can have up to 8 output devices, where each of the 8 usually maps onto a stereo pair, but can optionally be directed to a single speaker.
Using a laptop you will need something like an M-Audio FireWire 410 or a Roland Edirol UA-101 connected to a USB port. There are many other devices you could choose from, but I know several SCS users have the products I have mentioned and are very satisfied with them. Each of these has 1/4" outputs. Check the M-Audio and Roland web sites for more details.
MIDI Send cues in SCS can be used for anything you like, not just lighting. SCS supports output formats of Note On, Note Off, Program Change, Control Change, and also a fairly wide range of MSC (MIDI Show Control) message formats.
On the receiving end, you can also control SCS itself by MIDI messages. This is implemented by going to View / Options / MIDI Devices & Control, and selecting 'Control cues by MIDI input messages'. You can then choose from MSC, Program/Controller Change, or Note On message formats, and nominate the Device Id or MIDI Channel that SCS listens to. See the SCS Help for more details.
Using a laptop you will need something like an M-Audio FireWire 410 or a Roland Edirol UA-101 connected to a USB port. There are many other devices you could choose from, but I know several SCS users have the products I have mentioned and are very satisfied with them. Each of these has 1/4" outputs. Check the M-Audio and Roland web sites for more details.
MIDI Send cues in SCS can be used for anything you like, not just lighting. SCS supports output formats of Note On, Note Off, Program Change, Control Change, and also a fairly wide range of MSC (MIDI Show Control) message formats.
On the receiving end, you can also control SCS itself by MIDI messages. This is implemented by going to View / Options / MIDI Devices & Control, and selecting 'Control cues by MIDI input messages'. You can then choose from MSC, Program/Controller Change, or Note On message formats, and nominate the Device Id or MIDI Channel that SCS listens to. See the SCS Help for more details.
So if I am purchasing a laptop to be used with your system what types of ports and connections do I need to have to take full and complete advantage of sending and receiving MIDI signals.
And secondly, what types of features do I have to be looking at in a sound card to take full advantage of SCS. Do you have a sound card that recommend that you know works well with your system.
And finally what connections and or ports do I need to control the full 8 output devices.
Do all modern theatre devices send and receive MIDI signals? Or is this the wave of the future ?
And secondly, what types of features do I have to be looking at in a sound card to take full advantage of SCS. Do you have a sound card that recommend that you know works well with your system.
And finally what connections and or ports do I need to control the full 8 output devices.
Do all modern theatre devices send and receive MIDI signals? Or is this the wave of the future ?
OK I have been doing a lot of reading and I think that I am slowly catching on.
M-Audio Firewire 410 is essentially a mixing board right - only on my computer.
In order to connect my computer to that mixing board I need firewire in this case 6 pin and that firewire connects to the USB port of the computer. Therefore any laptop with a USB port will work- provided I have a sufficient operating system and all of course.
And the outputs from the M-Audio just go to powered speakers or amp racks.
Am I making all the right connections ?? Am I close ..... I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel
M-Audio Firewire 410 is essentially a mixing board right - only on my computer.
In order to connect my computer to that mixing board I need firewire in this case 6 pin and that firewire connects to the USB port of the computer. Therefore any laptop with a USB port will work- provided I have a sufficient operating system and all of course.
And the outputs from the M-Audio just go to powered speakers or amp racks.
Am I making all the right connections ?? Am I close ..... I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel
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Mike Daniell
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I'd welcome comments from users with a suitable external sound card for laptops, such as those previously mentioned, as I only have desktop external cards.
Some info I gave about USB in a previous post is not correct regarding the M-Audio 410. This requires a firewire connection which is different from a USB connection. Many laptops I've looked at have both a firewire port and (usually) several USB ports. The Edirol UA-101 uses USB.
The 410 is not a mixing board - it is best regarded as a professional sound card. The same applies to the AU-101. So your connection options for these devices are:
M-Audio 410: (a) firewire connection from laptop to 410, (b) unbalanced leads from the required number of 1/4" TS outputs on the 410 to your sound board; (c) usual connections from sound board to power amps etc.
Edirol AU-101: (a) USB connection from laptop to 101, (b) balanced leads from the required number of 1/4" TRS outputs on the 101 to your sound board; (c) usual connections from sound board to power amps etc.
Some info I gave about USB in a previous post is not correct regarding the M-Audio 410. This requires a firewire connection which is different from a USB connection. Many laptops I've looked at have both a firewire port and (usually) several USB ports. The Edirol UA-101 uses USB.
The 410 is not a mixing board - it is best regarded as a professional sound card. The same applies to the AU-101. So your connection options for these devices are:
M-Audio 410: (a) firewire connection from laptop to 410, (b) unbalanced leads from the required number of 1/4" TS outputs on the 410 to your sound board; (c) usual connections from sound board to power amps etc.
Edirol AU-101: (a) USB connection from laptop to 101, (b) balanced leads from the required number of 1/4" TRS outputs on the 101 to your sound board; (c) usual connections from sound board to power amps etc.
OK. Now I am a little bit confused again. Why do I need a sound board if I have SCS and an external Sound Card. SCS controls Volume Pan and Balance start and stop plus external Sound Card controls where the sound goes right ?!?!?!?!?
If these items are not to replace a sound board what are their purposes ?
Thank you for your patience and help with this. I realize in a live sound atmosphere I would still need a board. But even some of that can be handled by the 410 as well - i think 2 inputs.
If these items are not to replace a sound board what are their purposes ?
Thank you for your patience and help with this. I realize in a live sound atmosphere I would still need a board. But even some of that can be handled by the 410 as well - i think 2 inputs.
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Mike Daniell
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Technically you don't need a sound board. EG at home I have SCS driving thru an external card directly to powered speakers. However, in a theatre situation I've always worked with a sound board because that has been the norm. The sound board also allows you to connect mics and a CD player if required.
The first simple answer is that you don't need a sound board, desk or mixer, there'll usually be one that is part of the installation of whichever theatre you are visiting. This will be configured to match whatever speaker and amplifier set-up they have. Only if their mixer doesn't give you enough routeing options need you supply your own.
I have a M-Audio FireWire 410 which I use with a Toshiba laptop. The first thing to note is that, whilst the 410 can be self-powered via a 6-pin FireWire port, many laptops, including the Toshiba, have a 4-pin port which does not provide power and an external PSU must be used. The 410 comes with both types of leads and the necessary PSU.
The 410 is an external soundcard that offers 8 analogue outputs (plus S/PDIF if you want it) on 1/4" unbalanced jacks. These are not really suitable for direct connection to amplifiers, which may be connected on stage and connected to the sound desk via a balanced multicore. You need to be able to match input and output levels between the various bits of kit. In SCS you designate by name where the cues are to be routed and then specify in the device setup which 410 output is to be used for each.
When visiting a theatre I equip myself with 8 numbered patch cables which I connect to 8 unused channels on the mixer. What you do next depends upon what is installed. For FOH L&R you will just use two channels, panned fully L & R respectively, sent to the mix. If FOH Centre and Rear L&R are already installed they will perhaps be connected via groups, a matrix or auxes. (You might not need a separate output for FOH Centre from the 410 if the mixer can provide a summed output.) In your example there are three outputs remaining for monitors or FX on stage. If there are spare auxes available, not being used for the loop etc., you could use those from the relevant channels. Alternatively, if the mixer had direct outputs from each channel (normally pre-fader but possibly post EQ), you could use those. This is what I did for a recent play that needed FOH and 6 FX speakers. To get the signal to the stage you may have to be creative. If there are no spare circuits on the multicore you will have to run extra cables. If there are enough circuits, but they are the wrong gender (i.e. they are sends rather than returns) you'll have to use gender changers and/or XLR/jack adaptors.
SCS is marvellous and getting better all the time. I would suggest that you contact each theatre you expect to use and find out exactly what they have installed and how it is connected, mixer, speakers, amplifiers, tie-lines etc. They may have a spec sheet that gives all the answers. Obtain manuals for all the mixers (often available online), so that you can work out in the comfort of your home how you can make the connections you want. (Sorry if this all sounds like teaching your grandmother to suck eggs). Only if the "resident" mixers cannot do what you want would it be worthwhile buying your own, and you would then have to make sure that it can interface with the installed cable systems at the theatres.
Hope this helps.
I have a M-Audio FireWire 410 which I use with a Toshiba laptop. The first thing to note is that, whilst the 410 can be self-powered via a 6-pin FireWire port, many laptops, including the Toshiba, have a 4-pin port which does not provide power and an external PSU must be used. The 410 comes with both types of leads and the necessary PSU.
The 410 is an external soundcard that offers 8 analogue outputs (plus S/PDIF if you want it) on 1/4" unbalanced jacks. These are not really suitable for direct connection to amplifiers, which may be connected on stage and connected to the sound desk via a balanced multicore. You need to be able to match input and output levels between the various bits of kit. In SCS you designate by name where the cues are to be routed and then specify in the device setup which 410 output is to be used for each.
When visiting a theatre I equip myself with 8 numbered patch cables which I connect to 8 unused channels on the mixer. What you do next depends upon what is installed. For FOH L&R you will just use two channels, panned fully L & R respectively, sent to the mix. If FOH Centre and Rear L&R are already installed they will perhaps be connected via groups, a matrix or auxes. (You might not need a separate output for FOH Centre from the 410 if the mixer can provide a summed output.) In your example there are three outputs remaining for monitors or FX on stage. If there are spare auxes available, not being used for the loop etc., you could use those from the relevant channels. Alternatively, if the mixer had direct outputs from each channel (normally pre-fader but possibly post EQ), you could use those. This is what I did for a recent play that needed FOH and 6 FX speakers. To get the signal to the stage you may have to be creative. If there are no spare circuits on the multicore you will have to run extra cables. If there are enough circuits, but they are the wrong gender (i.e. they are sends rather than returns) you'll have to use gender changers and/or XLR/jack adaptors.
SCS is marvellous and getting better all the time. I would suggest that you contact each theatre you expect to use and find out exactly what they have installed and how it is connected, mixer, speakers, amplifiers, tie-lines etc. They may have a spec sheet that gives all the answers. Obtain manuals for all the mixers (often available online), so that you can work out in the comfort of your home how you can make the connections you want. (Sorry if this all sounds like teaching your grandmother to suck eggs). Only if the "resident" mixers cannot do what you want would it be worthwhile buying your own, and you would then have to make sure that it can interface with the installed cable systems at the theatres.
Hope this helps.
JM - thanks for the long and well thought out response !!!! It is greatly appreciated.
I work in about 6 different Theatres in the area and I have been designing for about 20 years so I am not speaking greek here and I understand MOST of what you said. What I am speaking greek on is the technology part of it. Trying to learn all the pieces and how they fit together and what is additional and what is replacement.
My question about not needing a mixer was not based on the theatres having one or not. All of them do and I have used them a lot. Plus I have my own mixer that I add when I need to as well. I just need to come into the 21st century.
As far as the M- Audio having 4 pin and 6 pin that is no big deal. If I have a 4 pin on my new laptop I will use the PSU.
Perhaps this is the question that I need answered. What is the purpose of an exteranl Sound card. From looking at the specs and stuff on line about the 410 and the graphics and all it LOOKED like a mixer. In the sense that it took an input and routed it to a specic output device. Which led me to believe that perhaps I could just bypass the sound board in the theatre and route directly to the amp rack. Thus eliminating assigning channels to devices.
Which brings me to another question balanced vs. unbalanced. While I have been designing for a long time. I have learned all by trial and error and had NO formal training. Can you explain the difference to me? I am assuming from my past experience that if I route everything through a mixing board that that is the device that balances everything - is that right?This would explain why I have never run into that problem - that I know of- I have always done everything the old fashioned way. This would be my first step into the tech side of it. Well that is not entirely true I do do all of my track making and mixing on my home computer with digital files. Then I just record them to analog and take them to the theatre on MD. Kind of defeats the purpose I guess but I am hoping this will change all that.
Which lead me to your next topic - patching. I can handle that part of it no problem.
Again Thank you sooooooo much for your help I really appreciate it
I work in about 6 different Theatres in the area and I have been designing for about 20 years so I am not speaking greek here and I understand MOST of what you said. What I am speaking greek on is the technology part of it. Trying to learn all the pieces and how they fit together and what is additional and what is replacement.
My question about not needing a mixer was not based on the theatres having one or not. All of them do and I have used them a lot. Plus I have my own mixer that I add when I need to as well. I just need to come into the 21st century.
As far as the M- Audio having 4 pin and 6 pin that is no big deal. If I have a 4 pin on my new laptop I will use the PSU.
Perhaps this is the question that I need answered. What is the purpose of an exteranl Sound card. From looking at the specs and stuff on line about the 410 and the graphics and all it LOOKED like a mixer. In the sense that it took an input and routed it to a specic output device. Which led me to believe that perhaps I could just bypass the sound board in the theatre and route directly to the amp rack. Thus eliminating assigning channels to devices.
Which brings me to another question balanced vs. unbalanced. While I have been designing for a long time. I have learned all by trial and error and had NO formal training. Can you explain the difference to me? I am assuming from my past experience that if I route everything through a mixing board that that is the device that balances everything - is that right?This would explain why I have never run into that problem - that I know of- I have always done everything the old fashioned way. This would be my first step into the tech side of it. Well that is not entirely true I do do all of my track making and mixing on my home computer with digital files. Then I just record them to analog and take them to the theatre on MD. Kind of defeats the purpose I guess but I am hoping this will change all that.
Which lead me to your next topic - patching. I can handle that part of it no problem.
Again Thank you sooooooo much for your help I really appreciate it
You're welcome.
To take your second question first: the balanced/unbalanced nomenclature I was referring to is not the same as the sense you were using it. Yes, a mixer is used to "balance" the various inputs, microphones CD etc., to achieve a perfect mix in the output that is sent to the FOH and other speakers. This is what you have been doing for 20 years and I apologise for insulting your intelligence in that regard.
Balanced/unbalanced refers to the electrical method of getting the signals into and out of the mixer. This is something you are probably aware of, perhaps without knowing the names.
Microphones are usually connected with balanced XLR cables (3-pin) comprising hot (+ve) and cold (-ve) cores surrounded by a grounded screen. Interference is rejected by such a cable because it affects both cores equally, however they are out of phase so the effect is cancelled out. Balanced connections should always be used for weak signals and long cable runs to reduce the impact of interference. Such runs are also, typically, from the sound mixer to the amps on stage. (Unless the amps are by the sound mixer, with long speaker cable runs).
Line level signals such as guitars or keyboards are often connected using unbalanced cable, consisting of a hot (+ve) core surrounded by a negative screen, which may also be grounded. These have either two-pole jack connectors or (typically) RCA phono connectors and are often used for connecting CD players etc. to a mixer. Such leads are best kept short to minimise interference effects. It is also best to use the cables expected by the equipment at each end; connecting balanced equipment with unbalanced leads can cause a 6dB signal loss. Jack connections on some mixers are "pseudo balanced" which means they can accept balanced or unbalanced.
The presence of so many screens interconnecting equipment, together with the mains ground/earth connection, can lead to ground loops giving rise to mains hum. Tracing this is a subject in itself, but it can sometimes be tamed by making use of "ground lift" switches on some equipment, isolating the signal earth from the mains earth. This is NOT the same as removing the earth wire from earthed mains equipment, which should NEVER be done, for safety reasons.
As far as the external sound card is concerned, its purpose is to overcome the limitations of the basic sound chip and driver installed in many desktop and laptop computers. Windows can normally only "see" one stereo device and so it is not possible to output more than a simple stereo signal. This could, of course, still be routed in many directions by a mixer, but not concurrently. Many desktops, but not many laptops, have "surround sound" outputs, whether 4.1, 5.1 or 7.1, which sometimes have to be processed through a decoder. Until recently SCS was not able to address these speakers independently - it now can but with some limitations, such as not being able to pan between them (I think). External USB soundcards, such as the Creative Audigy 2NX can bring surround sound to a laptop but driver limitations may mean that it doesn't always work with SCS.
Higher specification soundcards, which can be mounted within a desktop but have to be external to a laptop, can have their individual analogue outputs individually addressed if they have compatible drivers. The outputs are treated by Windows as stereo pairs and I have a feeling that there is a limit of four or five pairs, i.e. 8 or 10 outputs. However, with SCS they can all have different cues running on them concurrently. You can get an idea from some of the other threads on this forum how people use cues to achieve pans and cross fades.
I can see that this theoretically gives you all you want (unless mics are involved) and could obviate the mixer. However, as Mike has indicated above, not only are mixers more usual in the theatre but I believe it is also wise to isolate the amplifiers electrically from the sound card. The mixer enables the signal levels between the card and the amps to be properly matched and provides enough output to overcome cable losses. The only downside is the necessity to ensure, for repeatability from one performance to the next, that all the gain adjustments in the signal chain, input sensitivity, aux, main fader, amp sensitivity, are kept at the same settings as in the sound check at the tech.
Malcolm Gordon
To take your second question first: the balanced/unbalanced nomenclature I was referring to is not the same as the sense you were using it. Yes, a mixer is used to "balance" the various inputs, microphones CD etc., to achieve a perfect mix in the output that is sent to the FOH and other speakers. This is what you have been doing for 20 years and I apologise for insulting your intelligence in that regard.
Balanced/unbalanced refers to the electrical method of getting the signals into and out of the mixer. This is something you are probably aware of, perhaps without knowing the names.
Microphones are usually connected with balanced XLR cables (3-pin) comprising hot (+ve) and cold (-ve) cores surrounded by a grounded screen. Interference is rejected by such a cable because it affects both cores equally, however they are out of phase so the effect is cancelled out. Balanced connections should always be used for weak signals and long cable runs to reduce the impact of interference. Such runs are also, typically, from the sound mixer to the amps on stage. (Unless the amps are by the sound mixer, with long speaker cable runs).
Line level signals such as guitars or keyboards are often connected using unbalanced cable, consisting of a hot (+ve) core surrounded by a negative screen, which may also be grounded. These have either two-pole jack connectors or (typically) RCA phono connectors and are often used for connecting CD players etc. to a mixer. Such leads are best kept short to minimise interference effects. It is also best to use the cables expected by the equipment at each end; connecting balanced equipment with unbalanced leads can cause a 6dB signal loss. Jack connections on some mixers are "pseudo balanced" which means they can accept balanced or unbalanced.
The presence of so many screens interconnecting equipment, together with the mains ground/earth connection, can lead to ground loops giving rise to mains hum. Tracing this is a subject in itself, but it can sometimes be tamed by making use of "ground lift" switches on some equipment, isolating the signal earth from the mains earth. This is NOT the same as removing the earth wire from earthed mains equipment, which should NEVER be done, for safety reasons.
As far as the external sound card is concerned, its purpose is to overcome the limitations of the basic sound chip and driver installed in many desktop and laptop computers. Windows can normally only "see" one stereo device and so it is not possible to output more than a simple stereo signal. This could, of course, still be routed in many directions by a mixer, but not concurrently. Many desktops, but not many laptops, have "surround sound" outputs, whether 4.1, 5.1 or 7.1, which sometimes have to be processed through a decoder. Until recently SCS was not able to address these speakers independently - it now can but with some limitations, such as not being able to pan between them (I think). External USB soundcards, such as the Creative Audigy 2NX can bring surround sound to a laptop but driver limitations may mean that it doesn't always work with SCS.
Higher specification soundcards, which can be mounted within a desktop but have to be external to a laptop, can have their individual analogue outputs individually addressed if they have compatible drivers. The outputs are treated by Windows as stereo pairs and I have a feeling that there is a limit of four or five pairs, i.e. 8 or 10 outputs. However, with SCS they can all have different cues running on them concurrently. You can get an idea from some of the other threads on this forum how people use cues to achieve pans and cross fades.
I can see that this theoretically gives you all you want (unless mics are involved) and could obviate the mixer. However, as Mike has indicated above, not only are mixers more usual in the theatre but I believe it is also wise to isolate the amplifiers electrically from the sound card. The mixer enables the signal levels between the card and the amps to be properly matched and provides enough output to overcome cable losses. The only downside is the necessity to ensure, for repeatability from one performance to the next, that all the gain adjustments in the signal chain, input sensitivity, aux, main fader, amp sensitivity, are kept at the same settings as in the sound check at the tech.
Malcolm Gordon
Malcolm - Thanks again. You are great and patient. First off i was not insulted by your comments just frustrated about my own terminology ignorance and no book smarts.
You were correct I did know about all that you were talking about I just didn't know it But the one thing that I have always wondered is how to tell if the signal coming in to the board is balanced or unbalanced. How do I know if say a guitar is putting out a balanced or unbalanced signal - which is a bad case because guitars are probably always unbalanced. Is there a sure fire way to tell what the signal is ? If the output from the device is XLR is it always balanced ? And if it is 1/4 " or RCA is it always unbalanced? I have noticed in the past that I have had the 6db loss and didn't know why or how to fix it and just learned by trial and error to plug it into the other input.
If these signals from the 410 are unbalanced coming out then do I need to balance them before they get to the mixing board ? If so how do I do that? and if I do not do that I will get a hum right ?
And just so I am clear on using the mixer with this stuff basically it needs to be a set it and forget it thing. Meaning that once it is set it shouldn't be changed until the next production. It is kind of a pass thru device that serves a small purpose.
Thanks again:)
You were correct I did know about all that you were talking about I just didn't know it
But the one thing that I have always wondered is how to tell if the signal coming in to the board is balanced or unbalanced. How do I know if say a guitar is putting out a balanced or unbalanced signal - which is a bad case because guitars are probably always unbalanced. Is there a sure fire way to tell what the signal is ? If the output from the device is XLR is it always balanced ? And if it is 1/4 " or RCA is it always unbalanced? I have noticed in the past that I have had the 6db loss and didn't know why or how to fix it and just learned by trial and error to plug it into the other input.If these signals from the 410 are unbalanced coming out then do I need to balance them before they get to the mixing board ? If so how do I do that? and if I do not do that I will get a hum right ?
And just so I am clear on using the mixer with this stuff basically it needs to be a set it and forget it thing. Meaning that once it is set it shouldn't be changed until the next production. It is kind of a pass thru device that serves a small purpose.
Thanks again:)
For source equipment: an XLR output will always be balanced, an RCA phono output always unbalanced, a 1/4" jack socket might be either and it is not easy to tell unless the equipment is marked or you have the manual. Guitars and keyboards are usually unbalanced, but for long runs can be converted to balanced using a direct injection box (with an XLR output) and either converted back at the other end or connected to a mic input. Modern mixer outputs are likely to be balanced, whether on XLRs or jacks, and their jack inputs will probably accept either balanced or unbalanced sources but, in the latter case, it will be important to use an unbalanced lead.
As you have noted, how a source appears to the mixer also depends on the lead. An unbalanced cable connecting a balanced source will unbalance and reduce the signal. A balanced output requires three connections, and an unbalanced output only two. Thus if a device has an XLR output, is connected via correctly wired cable (two-core and screen) with XLRs at each end into an XLR input, the result will be balanced. A cable with RCA phonos at each end, which have tip and screen connections only, will be unbalanced. Likewise 1/4" two-pole (TS – tip/sleeve) jacks connected together will be unbalanced.
A pair of 1/4" three-pole (TRS – tip/ring/sleeve) jacks wired together correctly with two-core and screen cable will be balanced. A correctly wired combination of XLR and TRS jack would also be balanced. HOWEVER, the TRS jack might have been wired in unbalanced mode, with the ring and sleeve connected together. The only way to tell is by opening up the jack or using a continuity tester with both ends of the cable disconnected from equipment. Likewise an XLR might be wired unbalanced (with –ve and screen connected); this might be obvious, if the other end of the cable is connected to a TS jack or RCA phono, but not if it is another XLR.
You will see that cable identification is tricky and they should not be taken on trust unless you have made them up yourself or just purchased them new (even then it is worth checking them, as manufacturing faults are not unknown). Using a purpose-designed audio cable checker is a lot easier than using continuity probes. It is advisable to mark clearly any non-standard leads. Unbalanced leads should not be used for connecting microphones to a mixer that has phantom power or damage may result.
Of course, if a correctly wired XLR or TRS lead is being used in stereo mode, the connection is unbalanced as the L&R channels are each on one core and screen. This also applies to a TRS insert lead, used to connect an external processor to a mixer’s insert point.
As far as the 410 is concerned, the unbalanced outputs have not been a problem in my experience. Using good quality well-screened cables, no longer than they need to be (but in my case 1.8metre), with 2-pole TS jacks, I have suffered no hum. It is wise to route the cables away from mains cables or PSUs (if they must cross they should cross at right angles) to be on the safe side.
Finally (!), as far as the levels in the signal chain and the mixer are concerned: I would say that the mixer isn’t quite as redundant as you imply. Other than level matching, you might decide to play pre-show music from a CD player, for example, and would need to have a method of connecting that. What I would recommend is that, once agreed, the level and routeing settings should be noted for the entire mixer, perhaps on the blank mark-up sheets offered by many manufacturers. That way, if a knob-twiddler should get at the mixer between performances, perhaps because the sound system has to be used for another purpose in the morning, you have a reference point to reset everything at the sound check. It is always recommended that mixers are powered up with faders down, and the amps powered up last with their sensitivity control at the minimum setting, and then adjusted to the correct setting, which you have noted. The pre-show sound check is facilitated in SCS because you can send test tones to each speaker, without having to step through cue list to the particular cue that uses that speaker.
I hope I have covered everything so far.
Malcolm Gordon
As you have noted, how a source appears to the mixer also depends on the lead. An unbalanced cable connecting a balanced source will unbalance and reduce the signal. A balanced output requires three connections, and an unbalanced output only two. Thus if a device has an XLR output, is connected via correctly wired cable (two-core and screen) with XLRs at each end into an XLR input, the result will be balanced. A cable with RCA phonos at each end, which have tip and screen connections only, will be unbalanced. Likewise 1/4" two-pole (TS – tip/sleeve) jacks connected together will be unbalanced.
A pair of 1/4" three-pole (TRS – tip/ring/sleeve) jacks wired together correctly with two-core and screen cable will be balanced. A correctly wired combination of XLR and TRS jack would also be balanced. HOWEVER, the TRS jack might have been wired in unbalanced mode, with the ring and sleeve connected together. The only way to tell is by opening up the jack or using a continuity tester with both ends of the cable disconnected from equipment. Likewise an XLR might be wired unbalanced (with –ve and screen connected); this might be obvious, if the other end of the cable is connected to a TS jack or RCA phono, but not if it is another XLR.
You will see that cable identification is tricky and they should not be taken on trust unless you have made them up yourself or just purchased them new (even then it is worth checking them, as manufacturing faults are not unknown). Using a purpose-designed audio cable checker is a lot easier than using continuity probes. It is advisable to mark clearly any non-standard leads. Unbalanced leads should not be used for connecting microphones to a mixer that has phantom power or damage may result.
Of course, if a correctly wired XLR or TRS lead is being used in stereo mode, the connection is unbalanced as the L&R channels are each on one core and screen. This also applies to a TRS insert lead, used to connect an external processor to a mixer’s insert point.
As far as the 410 is concerned, the unbalanced outputs have not been a problem in my experience. Using good quality well-screened cables, no longer than they need to be (but in my case 1.8metre), with 2-pole TS jacks, I have suffered no hum. It is wise to route the cables away from mains cables or PSUs (if they must cross they should cross at right angles) to be on the safe side.
Finally (!), as far as the levels in the signal chain and the mixer are concerned: I would say that the mixer isn’t quite as redundant as you imply. Other than level matching, you might decide to play pre-show music from a CD player, for example, and would need to have a method of connecting that. What I would recommend is that, once agreed, the level and routeing settings should be noted for the entire mixer, perhaps on the blank mark-up sheets offered by many manufacturers. That way, if a knob-twiddler should get at the mixer between performances, perhaps because the sound system has to be used for another purpose in the morning, you have a reference point to reset everything at the sound check. It is always recommended that mixers are powered up with faders down, and the amps powered up last with their sensitivity control at the minimum setting, and then adjusted to the correct setting, which you have noted. The pre-show sound check is facilitated in SCS because you can send test tones to each speaker, without having to step through cue list to the particular cue that uses that speaker.
I hope I have covered everything so far.
Malcolm Gordon
Malcolm - you are my hero!! You are confirming tons of stuff that I have guessed at all these years. Plus now I know why it happens
So - if I go from the 410 to a DI box and then to the board all my signals will be balanced and that sould make the system quiet as a mouse right ? Many of the cables that I use in the theatres are VERY poor quality.
I have experienced knob - twiddlers once and that was enough for me to learn - write it all down !!! No problems there Everything I play is all midi - the only thing I have that is not digital is live mics and then of course I would need a board.
I am really looking forward to trying out SCS the more i think about it the more i wish i had it for this show but I am sure I will use it on the next one.
Generally speaking when is a cable run long enough to warrant a balanced cable?
So - if I go from the 410 to a DI box and then to the board all my signals will be balanced and that sould make the system quiet as a mouse right ? Many of the cables that I use in the theatres are VERY poor quality.
I have experienced knob - twiddlers once and that was enough for me to learn - write it all down !!! No problems there
Everything I play is all midi - the only thing I have that is not digital is live mics and then of course I would need a board.I am really looking forward to trying out SCS the more i think about it the more i wish i had it for this show but I am sure I will use it on the next one.
Generally speaking when is a cable run long enough to warrant a balanced cable?
Well yeeess, but you would need one DI box per output and, if you are using all 8 outputs of the 410, at GBP20-30 per box that is rather expensive. Better to keep within a reasonable distance of the mixer, use unbalanced cables and keep them as noise-free as possible. There are alternative external soundcards with multiple analogue balanced outputs but they tend to be more expensive and not really justified unless one is going to make use of the other facilities they offer. Encourage the theatres to replace their cables!
Your last question I am tempted to answer with "how long is a piece of string?". It depends really upon whether the cable is running in an electrically noisy environment or if you can keep it apart from lighting and mains cables. I would have thought that 5-10 metres would be the limit for unbalanced, but that is a guess.
Good luck with SCS when you eventually succumb!
Malcolm Gordon
Your last question I am tempted to answer with "how long is a piece of string?". It depends really upon whether the cable is running in an electrically noisy environment or if you can keep it apart from lighting and mains cables. I would have thought that 5-10 metres would be the limit for unbalanced, but that is a guess.
Good luck with SCS when you eventually succumb!
Malcolm Gordon
For the DI boxes - I asked because I already have 5-6 of them and would only need a couple more to make the full 8. I quite often work with bands that do not have their own DI boxes so I just bought a few in case. And I don't think I would be using the full 8 most of the time. Also I don't know what a pound converts to but DI boxes are pretty cheap here - say $20-30 USD.
For the distance of the runs - yeah that is about what I have guessed at over the years. So I have been pretty close- tha tis good.
As so as SCS - it is too late I have alreay succumbed. I will be buying one soon. Santa gave me a check for it
Thanks a million for all your help - you have been great. I really appreciate it.
Kevin
For the distance of the runs - yeah that is about what I have guessed at over the years. So I have been pretty close- tha tis good.
As so as SCS - it is too late I have alreay succumbed. I will be buying one soon. Santa gave me a check for it
Thanks a million for all your help - you have been great. I really appreciate it.
Kevin