[Mod 11.8.2.2] MIDI NRPN support in Control Send Cues

[Mike Daniell]

The next release of SCS will support MIDI NRPN (Non-Registered Parameter Number) messages in Control Send Cues. If you would like to test and comment on this feature (and have a current update plan) then please let me know. The feature has been tested using Control Send NRPN messages sent to a Qu-16 mixer, successfully adjusting fader levels and EQ settings.

[djvomght]

Oh, this will make http://www.showcuesystem.com/forum/view ... 0bdb757076 obsolete

[Boswell]

I can test this with our QU32 so yes please Mike, it should be easier than my current method of using Midi Free format

[allcomp]

Hello Mike

Sign me up for a test drive;).

[r_f_d]

I've been working with NRPNs since we bought a Yamaha QL1 back in 2017 using four MIDI CC to create one MIDI NRPN.
I'd love to use the new MIDI NRPN Cues but unlike A&H the Yamaha consoles expect the format of NRPNs to be [NRPN LSB (#98)] > [NRPN MSB (#99)] > [DATA MSB (#06)] > [DATA LSB (#38)]. I assume that's why neither transmitting NRPNs nor the promising "Capture NRPN" does work with our Yamaha QL1.

Would it be asked too much to implement an option allowing the user to freely determine the order of MSB and LSB?

[Mike Daniell]

Are you sure the Yamaha expects/sends NRPN LSB (#98) before NRPN MSB (#99)? From what I've found on the web, that's non-standard, and the brief info I've found in Yamaha documentation also indicates that #99 is before #98.

Do you have MIDI-OX? If so, could you use this to capture some NRPN from your QL1 and email me the MIDI-OX input log?

[r_f_d]

Are you sure the Yamaha expects/sends NRPN LSB (#98) before NRPN MSB (#99)?

Yes, I'm sure.

NRPN.jpg (118.45 KiB) Viewed 114451 times

If I were in the venue right now I could take a screenshot of the MIDI-Test-Window in 'Production Properties' > 'Cue Control Devices' that shows the incoming MIDI Messages from the QL1 but it just would show the same order of MSB and LSB. I always use that MIDI-Test-Window when I have to create a new NRPN.

From what I've found on the web, that's non-standard, and the brief info I've found in Yamaha documentation also indicates that #99 is before #98.

The order of MSB and LSB for NRPNs is specified in the 'QL5/QL1 V5 Reference Manual' in the upper right corner of page 311, section 'Data List' > 'MIDI Data Format'
https://de.yamaha.com/files/download/ot ... _rm_d0.pdf

[Mike Daniell]

OK, thanks for the link. They seem to have adopted this structure because in transmission (ie NRPN sent by the QL) the 2nd and subsequent bytes 'need not be added'. So according to that standard, the NRPN LSB byte is the only byte that will always be sent by the QL.

I'll have a look into including Yamaha support.

[r_f_d]

OK, thanks for the link. They seem to have adopted this structure because in transmission (ie NRPN sent by the QL) the 2nd and subsequent bytes 'need not be added'. So according to that standard, the NRPN LSB byte is the only byte that will always be sent by the QL.

I'll have a look into including Yamaha support.

The QL will always send all four MIDI CC completely. I'll take a screenshot next time I'm on site.
But anyway: The possibility to change the order of [NRPN MSB] and [NRPN LSB] would make SCS capable of handling Yamaha CL/QL Series NRPNs.

[r_f_d]

OK, thanks for the link. They seem to have adopted this structure because in transmission (ie NRPN sent by the QL) the 2nd and subsequent bytes 'need not be added'. So according to that standard, the NRPN LSB byte is the only byte that will always be sent by the QL.

I'll have a look into including Yamaha support.

It's my understanding that the meaning of "The STATUS byte of the second and subsequent messages need not be added during transmission" is that you don't have to tell the QL that another MIDI CC will be coming in because the desk is expecting the three following MIDI CC after receiving a MIDI CC at #98.

[r_f_d]

OK, thanks for the link. They seem to have adopted this structure because in transmission (ie NRPN sent by the QL) the 2nd and subsequent bytes 'need not be added'. So according to that standard, the NRPN LSB byte is the only byte that will always be sent by the QL.

I'll have a look into including Yamaha support.

The QL will always send all four MIDI CC completely. I'll take a screenshot next time I'm on site.
But anyway: The possibility to change the order of [NRPN MSB] and [NRPN LSB] would make SCS capable of handling Yamaha CL/QL Series NRPNs.

I just opened the MIDI-Test-Window for the first time since I updated from 11.7.1.3 to 11.8.3.2 and to my surprise only three of the four MIDI CC Messages forming one NRPN were displayed:

SCS_11.8.3.2.jpg (38.4 KiB) Viewed 114404 times

Luckily I kept 11.7.1.3 installed (just in case I'd have to do a rollback), so I could take a screenshot of what 11.7.1.3 shows when the same NRPN (Fader Ch5 -7dB) arrives from the QL. This is where I got all the values for my NRPNs from since I've started programming them.

SCS_11.7.1.3.jpg (44.36 KiB) Viewed 114404 times

So with 11.8.3.2 I won't be able to create new NRPNs because the MIDI CC for #99 doesn't show anymore ...

[r_f_d]

OK, thanks for the link. They seem to have adopted this structure because in transmission (ie NRPN sent by the QL) the 2nd and subsequent bytes 'need not be added'. So according to that standard, the NRPN LSB byte is the only byte that will always be sent by the QL.

I'll have a look into including Yamaha support.

It's my understanding that the meaning of "The STATUS byte of the second and subsequent messages need not be added during transmission" is that you don't have to tell the QL that another MIDI CC will be coming in because the desk is expecting the three following MIDI CC after receiving a MIDI CC at #98.

I just did a test to verify my presumption: When sending an NRPN to the QL only the first MIDI CC Message needs the STATUS Byte (Bn).

As an example: The two following NRPNs have exactly the same result (Ch1>Mix1 ON) when being sent to the QL:

NRPN with all STATUS Bytes.jpg (108.78 KiB) Viewed 114399 times

NRPN only with LSB STATUS Byte.jpg (108.84 KiB) Viewed 114399 times

[Mike Daniell]

OK, I'm getting a better understanding of what Yamaha are sending and accepting. The 'missing' controller 99 message in the 11.8.3.2 test window was due to changes I made regarding NRPN processing, and the 99 message got filtered out too early as part of the NRPN detection.

It will be feasible to modify SCS to support the Yamaha NRPN format, but I will need to add a 'Remote Device' property in Production Properties / Devices / MIDI Control Send and MIDI Cue Control, similar to that which currently exists for Network devices. This will enable SCS to distinguish between Yamaha, A&H, and possibly other specific devices. SCS will need to know that to determine the order in which to display and send the NRPN CC messages.

[r_f_d]

Well, that sounds like a lot of work, I didn't mean to cause that much trouble.

I just saw that promising NRPN-Capture function that would have made programming NRPNs at least ten times faster because until now creating a single NRPN for the QL means for me to navigate to 'Production Properties' > 'Cue Control Devices' > select the respective device and open the MIDI-Test window > send the NRPN from the QL > take a screenshot > open Windows Paint and insert the screenshot > navigate back down the tree of the Cuelist > create a MIDI CC Cue and enter four messages with the numbers of the screenshot. Although I've gotten pretty fast in doing this routine it still slows down my programming speed noticeably.

I don't know if this would be easier to implement, but it would work fine for me if a 'MIDI Free Format' Cue would allow me not only to capture the next MIDI Message but the following [n] MIDI Messages (n=4 for NRPNs). Of course I still would have to change the STATUS byte of the captured messages to the correct value but that's a matter of seconds.

[Mike Daniell]

I've started working on this and now realize I was making it more complicated than necessary. I do not need to add a 'remote device' field - I just need to add an extra entry to the 'Message Type' selection in Control Send Cues. The existing entry 'NRPN' will be changed to 'NRPN (Standard)', and a new entry will be included for 'NRPN (Yamaha)'. This will not affect any existing cue files as 'NRPN (Standard)' will just be the new description for 'NRPN'. From what I've been able to ascertain from Internet searches, Yamaha is the only company that requires the NRPN LSB message to precede the NRPN MSB message.

When selecting 'NRPN (Yamaha)', the 'NRPN LSB' item will be displayed before the 'NRPN MSB' item on the Control Send screen, and, of course there will be other internal changes to comply with this format. This will include support for MIDI Capture of these Yamaha NRPN messages.