Enhance "After start of cue" behavior

[StasUshomirsky]

At our theater, I've been using SCS not only to play back audio, but also extensively utilizing all the wonderful "show control" capabilities of this software. What I typically do now, is manually trigger an audio cue, and then have lots of automatic cues -- level change and light cues (via MIDI) -- which trigger "after start" of the audio cue.

My audio cues are often fairly long: 7~10 minutes in duration.

The challenge is this: during programming or rehearsals, I often need to play just a section of the audio track. For example, to make sure we get some lighting cue just right, I might need to keep running just the last 1 minute of a long audio cue. But, if I skip to the last minute, the automated cues don't follow. Their counters are still counting down from the point when the audio cue originally started.

Playing each long audio cue from the beginning is extremely inefficient when programming...and not possible at all during tech rehearsals -- I just can't make the entire cast and crew sit and wait for 9 minutes, just so that we can rehearse something that happens in the last 1 minute of the long cue.

Is there any way to have the "after start" automatic cues react to the actual REAL-TIME value on the playback counter, so that even if the operator fast-forwards or rewinds the audio, all the automated cues trigger correctly? Would it be possible to adjust the logic on the automatic cues to always look at the LIVE counter?

The way I think this should work, is if the operator jumps to another time in the audio track and some of the automatic cues are now in the "past", they should just be skipped and change their status to "completed". But the cues that are still "coming up" should react to the new playback position and the countdowns should immediately recalculate accordingly, so that the automatic cues still happen at the intended moment within the audio cue.

I do know that it's possible to use "before end" triggering -- but, it's very difficult to program that way. If I need a cue to trigger at 1:17.3 of a 10 minute audio track, always having to calculate backwards from the end is very tricky and error-prone. Also, "before end" triggering does not show countdowns.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[cpeters]

Stas,

same problems here with ballet productions where audio files up to 20 min are running, triggering the light board and with included level change cues. In rehearsals we often had to play only parts of it.
It's no problem to trigger the lightning board and level cues if the audio files aren't to long, but yes: we too have always to play from the beginning if we coose 'after start of cue'.
A solution could be Midi Time Code to sync the light console (which is I think on the list for scs 11...)…but this wouldn't solve the problem with the level change cues which are triggered "after start' if you play in rehearsals several pieces of the audio halfway through.

I think it could be solved if Mike could implement an 'automatic time calculator' function if we choose the 'before end of' option.
If there e.g. was the possibility to have two time fields to type in the time before end or into the second field the time after start and scs automatically does the time conversion into time before end and vice versa (relative to which field you will use to set the time)….the problem could be solved.
Then I type in the time after start and scs converted this into time before end and uses the function. Then I can skip wherever I want.
This could only work if I choose an audio cue (to read out the time) and not for the option 'previous cue' ….but I think that would be not the problem for most cases to reference on a specific audio file cue. But I don't know whether your problem is solved then. If you skip in the audio into the middle then all previous cues were fired at one time (because the starting time is already elapsed) to be in sync for the next ones. Don't know how the lightningboard will react on that...but it is the right way to have all in sync on the referring audio!

Another way to solve could be to expand the upcoming marker/cuepoint feature in scs. Maybe in the future there could be options like 'start cue at marker xx in cue yy'…?
But then I have to check if I start at any position the right lightning cue was set by hand...otherwise it only syncs at the next upcoming lightning cue trigger from scs.

A free drawable volume curve per cue would maybe solve the level change cue problem and make them obsolet!

Regards,

Christian

[Willarki]

How would you handle cues sent to other devices eg lx desk, if you skipped them. I'm thinking specifically here if you are using tracking mode on a lx console ( and really, why wouldn't you). This is a complex scenario that takes some serious coding on those consoles. eg at the 2 minute mark of your 20 min audio cue, you bring up some area lighting that stays in for the whole scene, at the 5 minute mark you take out some specials that were on at the beginning of the cue, and then at the 8 minute mark you bring up some side lighting which will also stay for the duration. But you only want to tech the last 2 minutes so you jump to that point. Hang on, where are those other areas that should be lit and why are those specials still up.

For live theatre, nothing, but nothing, beats an SM calling a show and real operators on both lx & sound. All the automation just adds another potential point of failure, no matter how good the software. And I think SCS is the best.

[cpeters]

I'm not so familiar with lightning desks…but I agree with you that there should always be a SM, lightning desk and sound operator.
But sometimes I think automation has the right to exist.
Last season we had a 12min ballet show. The sound cue runs from the beginning to the end and the lightning cues were programmed in the LB with hold times between the cues! So it never fitted perfectly because if the stage manager started the show sound and light never pressed the go button on the same time and the wait times in the lightning cues never fitted exact to the sound. And in 12 min light and sound board always run out of sync if they aren't linked.
So why not to automate this and set the cue goes for each lightning cue on the exact right audio position?
And there are many occasions at our shows where the SM want to see the running clock from SCS to give the cue goes by intercom to the lightning desk operator at specific points in time?!

So I think in your example if I jump to the last to minutes I know which lightning cue will come next triggered by SCS. I too prefer to had a lightning board operator on the desk so he has to know which cue was to load before the next cue was fired from SCS. Wouldn't you have the same problem without coupling if the SM in a rehearsal wants to skip...? …As said before I'm not so familiar with lightning desk programming….but if its possible to store not only the changes into the cue but a global cue so the problem could be minimized if I jump to 2 min because with the next triggered lightning cue I am in sync again?

But I think it's not good to couple all cues and all the time….but I think often there are many cues in parallel which you can't really perfectly sync between 3 human beings!
Automation is I think a nice additional option to sync perfectly where it is needed…but there are often cues fired by visual so I don't think the operators will be obsolete at any time in the future!

[StasUshomirsky]

Stas,

same problems here with ballet productions where audio files up to 20 min are running, triggering the light board and with included level change cues. In rehearsals we often had to play only parts of it.
It's no problem to trigger the lightning board and level cues if the audio files aren't to long, but yes: we too have always to play from the beginning if we coose 'after start of cue'.

Christian,
I am glad I am not the only one! I know exactly what you are dealing with -- I have done ballet too (not at my current theater) and I also had 20 min audio tracks! I had actually forgotten about that, but I am glad you brought it up!
Wouldn't it be better if automatic cues (such as "Level Change") would trigger based on CURRENT counter position?

In SCS, the counter does stay accurate even after rewinding and fast-forwarding -- so it seems feasible that cues could trigger off of that counter -- and should fire at the right time within the track. Mike -- is this possible?

...If you skip in the audio into the middle then all previous cues were fired at one time (because the starting time is already elapsed) to be in sync for the next ones. Don't know how the lightningboard will react on that...but it is the right way to have all in sync on the referring audio!

I don't believe SCS should fire all previous cues. I think SCS should simply skip those cues that we went past.

How would you handle cues sent to other devices eg lx desk, if you skipped them. I'm thinking specifically here if you are using tracking mode on a lx console ( and really, why wouldn't you). This is a complex scenario that takes some serious coding on those consoles. eg at the 2 minute mark of your 20 min audio cue, you bring up some area lighting that stays in for the whole scene, at the 5 minute mark you take out some specials that were on at the beginning of the cue, and then at the 8 minute mark you bring up some side lighting which will also stay for the duration. But you only want to tech the last 2 minutes so you jump to that point. Hang on, where are those other areas that should be lit and why are those specials still up.

You have a very valid point regarding the tracking mode on an lx console. My thinking is that the situation would actually be exactly the same even if we were NOT using any automation -- the lx operator would still need to get to the right cue to tech the last 2 minutes of some scene. When teching a show we are always skipping around -- and we always have operators manually getting set to be in the right cue for whichever part of a scene we need to rehearse. If we are skipping around during tech, I certainly would not expect SCS to keep track of this and I don't think that's necessary.

For live theatre, nothing, but nothing, beats an SM calling a show and real operators on both lx & sound. All the automation just adds another potential point of failure, no matter how good the software. And I think SCS is the best.

I completely agree with you by the way -- nothing beats an SM calling a show. I also agree with you that SCS is the best! But a real SM and automation are not mutually exclusive. Not at all. They complement each other. For example: The SM certainly does NOT want to call 15 level change cues in my audio track, but I DO want automation to make those level changes highly accurate and perfectly repeatable. Thus, I rely on the automation capabilities of SCS.

So, here is how it happens at our theater -- when the SM or director says: "Ok everybody, we are now going to rehearse the end of John's song and the transition to Scene 4" -- that's when all the departments (and actors too) get set for that part of the show; we all get our respective hardware cued up to the correct state -- and then I start audio playback of the last minute of John's song. To come back to my original "feature request" -- I would love for automation to happen as intended from that point forward.

Doesn't that sound like the best of both worlds?

[Mike Daniell]

I agree that this functionality would be very useful and I've been giving some thought to the implementation, taking into consideration the suggestions given so far in this topic.

In SCS 11 there are many scenarios to consider as there are several ways to auto-start a cue or a sub-cue. What I am considering is that for each cue SCS will work out a timeline of when all associated cues and sub-cues are expected to start relative to that cue, based on auto-start types and times, sub-cue relative start types and times, and sub-cue lengths. If a progress slider is manually moved then SCS will calculate the adjustment made (SCS 11 already calculates this) and then apply that adjustment to the timeline.

If the adjustment 'passes over' some cues or sub-cues in the timeline then I suggest that the last cue or sub-cue of each type is executed if the main cue is currently playing, or is marked for execution if the main cue has not yet been started. The idea of playing the 'last cue or sub-cue of each type' is primarily to handle skipping over multiple Control Send cues, so that only the last Control Send cue before the new point is processed. Any 'passed over' cue or sub-cue that is not to be executed would be marked as 'completed'.

However, there are more complicated things to work out yet, such as how to handle Video/Image cues, Level Change cues, etc.

Probably the best approach is to settle on an overall strategy such as the 'timeline' concept described above, and have a phased implementation so that the most common requirements are handled first.

[StasUshomirsky]

What I am considering is that for each cue SCS will work out a timeline of when all associated cues and sub-cues are expected to start relative to that cue, based on auto-start types and times, sub-cue relative start types and times, and sub-cue lengths. If a progress slider is manually moved then SCS will calculate the adjustment made (SCS 11 already calculates this) and then apply that adjustment to the timeline.

Thank you so much Mike! The 'timeline' approach you describe is excellent!

If the adjustment 'passes over' some cues or sub-cues in the timeline then I suggest that the last cue or sub-cue of each type is executed if the main cue is currently playing, or is marked for execution if the main cue has not yet been started. The idea of playing the 'last cue or sub-cue of each type' is primarily to handle skipping over multiple Control Send cues, so that only the last Control Send cue before the new point is processed. Any 'passed over' cue or sub-cue that is not to be executed would be marked as 'completed'.

I completely agree with everything you said. And executing the last cue or sub-cue is a great idea!

However, there are more complicated things to work out yet, such as how to handle Video/Image cues, Level Change cues, etc.

I think SCS should calculate the compound effect of all skipped-over Level Change cues. In other words, SCS should adjust the level, as though all the skipped-over Level Change cues actually executed.

Probably the best approach is to settle on an overall strategy such as the 'timeline' concept described above, and have a phased implementation so that the most common requirements are handled first.

I completely agree with the overall strategy of the 'timeline' that you described. I've given this a lot of thought and examined the various situations I have encountered in our shows -- and I think the 'timeline' concept is very powerful and could handle all situations.

[StasUshomirsky]

Mike, are there any news on this matter?

Thank you!

[Mike Daniell]

Mike, are there any news on this matter?

Thank you!

Yes, there's some progress, but I hit a few stumbling blocks which held up implementation. I'm currently working on enhancements to video cues, including adding xVideo to SCS 11 (as it was in SCS 10), but will get back to the timeline processing shortly.

[StasUshomirsky]

That's great news Mike! I very much look forward to utilizing this new timeline behavior. I really appreciate all the hard work you put into this excellent software! Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I am happy to help with research, or with alpha and beta testing.

[thaigh256]

I would Really like to see this too but was thinking couldn't this all be done and a whole lot more if SCS was able to use timecode.

[StasUshomirsky]

Mike, have you had a chance to look further at the "timeline" approach that you described in an earlier post here?

Thank you!

[Mike Daniell]

Haven't done much on this recently, Stas. I've had a few requests for MIDI Time Code support and this could be a good way to implement the requirement, as thaigh256 suggests.

[newlifedrama]

I have the same need - long audio cues (many minutes) with a timed sequence of events (midi sends and other tracks) auto-started based on the first track. One work-around I found was to change the auto-start from after-start to before-end, then they still work (as you pointed out). Although that is a minor pain, and it doesn't count down and it is just hard to mentally deal with. However, one trick is to advance the main cue to the location you want and it tells you remaining time so you can use that for programming (I always goof when I do it manually).

I was running a show in Sept and found some glitches in auto-start cues and I believe Mike fixed those and also improved the behavior of auto-start cues. So now I think there's a decent chance of them behaving as you want, or close. I remember starting the sequence , advancing the main cue to where I wanted, and having the auto-start cues adjust themselves. Most of my auto-start cues are midi-send though, to control a mixer. So those are 1-time cues. However, some are other music/effect tracks playing on top of the main one. I believe once they are started, you can advance the main cue and the sub-cues advance accordingly (but I don't know what happens if they haven't started yet).

I agree, some sort of MIDI time code support might help although I haven't read up on those yet. I also suggested to Mike that if there's labels or markers buried within a wav file, that perhaps you could use those. Because that is really where you probably start - e.g. listen to the track in an editor, and mark the place you want to do something. So why bother writing down the time, just insert a label or marker or whatever they are, and then use that as the trigger for the auto-start cue, e.g. cue 9 auto-starts at marker "foo" after-start of cue 8. Then I can also go move the marker in cue 8 and voila!

[Mike Daniell]

I've just posted a topic on the Tricks and Tips forum regarding a 'work-around' for MIDI Time Code control of cues. This in no way reduces the need to support MTC or something equivalent in SCS itself, but could be helpful while you're waiting