I very often have to change the level of a complex cue made up of multiple audio file sub-cues - sometimes up to 10 or even more running simultaneously. It takes a long time to get the relative levels of each sub-cue just so when building the cue file away from the theatre, but when I get to the venue I invariably need to change the overall level of the cue without affecting the relative levels of its sub-cues (which is what group faders or DCAs are used for on a mixing desk). At the moment it takes quite some time to individually adjust each sub-cue whilst retaining the relative levels; time that I don't really have as it's invariably in the middle of a technical rehearsal that it needs to be done.
Some sort of "master fader" on the containing top level cue would make the job a lot easier, quicker and more accurate.
Thanks.
"Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
PS: Would also need a level change cue to be able to be applied to the cue master so that all sub-cues in that cue can be faded up or down together maintaining relative level.
Again this is a very common requirement - a composite cue providing background atmosphere to establish a scene, which then needs to be reduced in level so that it doesn't mask the actor speech. it's very tedious to have to build a cue with 10 or more level change subcues.
Again this is a very common requirement - a composite cue providing background atmosphere to establish a scene, which then needs to be reduced in level so that it doesn't mask the actor speech. it's very tedious to have to build a cue with 10 or more level change subcues.
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
So I don't think what you're looking for is in SCS but I have run into the same and developed a couple of different approaches:
One way I do this is to send all those cues in that grouping to the same specific device. So my Audio Devices might look something like as shown in the attached JPG. Note that even though it's a seperate device it still goes to the same output as my FOH & House music.
I will then put my complex cues and sub-cues through that specific device and I can then control the overall volume maintaining the relativity of them through either the Device Faders (Show Faders - see also attached word document) or via the device screen.
Whilst not totally answering your requirement this approach does then allow you to reduce the overall level of the set of cues and works particularly well if you use an external controller, something like a BCF2000, through which you can then control the Device level. You can then either do it dynamically during the show if needed (as per your follow on comment). Or at rehearsal time and use the "Save Fader Levels" button to keep the end result.
The other approach I've also used which will do it all automatically for you (if you really want it that way) is to use something like a XR18 mixer which has USB inputs. So same approach on the devices except I send Airplane Mix to a specific channel on the mixer and route it from there to where I want it in the auditorium. I can then use commands to control the mixer on that specific chanel to increase/decrease. So typically loud at the start of the scene then reduce back to background level as the scene progresses.
The latter is a little bit more complex and to be honest not sure it's the right thing to do as Audio can be such a dynamic thing. I suspect you are still going to need to adjust for audience numbers and actor voice strength being different on each night even in the same venue. So personally I might go for the 1st approach. But both will work. I am also not sure that you can issue the fade to the mixer with a time associated with it. (So fade down to -20 over 2 seconds). I think it just cuts to the new level. So it might have to be a timed series of fades. But may be worth experimenting and may depend on your mixer.
Hope that helps.
One way I do this is to send all those cues in that grouping to the same specific device. So my Audio Devices might look something like as shown in the attached JPG. Note that even though it's a seperate device it still goes to the same output as my FOH & House music.
I will then put my complex cues and sub-cues through that specific device and I can then control the overall volume maintaining the relativity of them through either the Device Faders (Show Faders - see also attached word document) or via the device screen.
Whilst not totally answering your requirement this approach does then allow you to reduce the overall level of the set of cues and works particularly well if you use an external controller, something like a BCF2000, through which you can then control the Device level. You can then either do it dynamically during the show if needed (as per your follow on comment). Or at rehearsal time and use the "Save Fader Levels" button to keep the end result.
The other approach I've also used which will do it all automatically for you (if you really want it that way) is to use something like a XR18 mixer which has USB inputs. So same approach on the devices except I send Airplane Mix to a specific channel on the mixer and route it from there to where I want it in the auditorium. I can then use commands to control the mixer on that specific chanel to increase/decrease. So typically loud at the start of the scene then reduce back to background level as the scene progresses.
The latter is a little bit more complex and to be honest not sure it's the right thing to do as Audio can be such a dynamic thing. I suspect you are still going to need to adjust for audience numbers and actor voice strength being different on each night even in the same venue. So personally I might go for the 1st approach. But both will work. I am also not sure that you can issue the fade to the mixer with a time associated with it. (So fade down to -20 over 2 seconds). I think it just cuts to the new level. So it might have to be a timed series of fades. But may be worth experimenting and may depend on your mixer.
Hope that helps.
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Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
Yes, I could do it that way, but that would need more output devices than I have available -- only 2 channels at the usual venue, 4 if I use the headphone output of the laptop (yuk). Unfortunately there are no Win10 or 11 drivers for my Tascam US122.
If I was using my X32 then it would work very well, but for most of these shows we are using the local Qu24 desk (X32 won't fit in the control room), so I'd need a multi-channel audio interface or I'd need to configure the Q24 desk USB interface but we're short on time to set it up as I'm mostly erecting the set up to the start of the tech - I just don't have the time so get it all working.
Also I'm often not there for the get-out and no-one else would be able to put the mixer back as the venue wants it (they've lost their resident tech due to some internal politics)
It would be much quicker and convenient SCS could do it all in software.
If I was using my X32 then it would work very well, but for most of these shows we are using the local Qu24 desk (X32 won't fit in the control room), so I'd need a multi-channel audio interface or I'd need to configure the Q24 desk USB interface but we're short on time to set it up as I'm mostly erecting the set up to the start of the tech - I just don't have the time so get it all working.
Also I'm often not there for the get-out and no-one else would be able to put the mixer back as the venue wants it (they've lost their resident tech due to some internal politics)
It would be much quicker and convenient SCS could do it all in software.
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
But while SCS doesn't have a cue to adjust the device level then my solution will work (trust me I've done it), even with only the physical 2 outputs - Note in my original attachment Airplane Mix is sent to the same physical outputs as the FOH & House devices, so you can have multiple SCS output devices going to the same physical place, but you get control of each one through the faders on SCS. (Incidently this is something some other cue playing software does not have.)
There is a 3rd appraoch which occured to me last night. It is arguably messy and I'm not sure I'd use it in place of what I've described before although I have done so and it works.
So the really elegant way would be to use a Level Change cue at the CUE level so it level changes all the sub-cues within it by say a percentage. But we don't have that and maybe thats the enhancement we want. So instead in essance we will fade down to an existing cue at a lower volume level.
Set up 2 identical cues with there sub cues.
Set cue 1 is at full volume
Set cue 2 at your reduced volume for the background
Fire them both at the same time so they both run together - now you may hit syncronisation problems so don't do this if that's important. But now you have both cues running side by side.
Then cue 3 is an SFR cue to fade & stop Cue 1 - with an overide fade time so it applies it to all the subcues. The important bit here is to fade and stop at the CUE level, not the sub cue or you'll have to do it for each of the sub cues in Cue 1. Thus leaving cue 2 running which is at your reduced volume. If you wanted to get really clever you could trigger the SFR cue with a cue marker or as a timed cue say 10 seconds after the start of one of the subcues in either group. But that's further refinements.
A bit messy, and you may encounter syncronisation problems between the 2 cues. But if it's for background (like a village green or similar) it should not matter too much.
There is a 3rd appraoch which occured to me last night. It is arguably messy and I'm not sure I'd use it in place of what I've described before although I have done so and it works.
So the really elegant way would be to use a Level Change cue at the CUE level so it level changes all the sub-cues within it by say a percentage. But we don't have that and maybe thats the enhancement we want. So instead in essance we will fade down to an existing cue at a lower volume level.
Set up 2 identical cues with there sub cues.
Set cue 1 is at full volume
Set cue 2 at your reduced volume for the background
Fire them both at the same time so they both run together - now you may hit syncronisation problems so don't do this if that's important. But now you have both cues running side by side.
Then cue 3 is an SFR cue to fade & stop Cue 1 - with an overide fade time so it applies it to all the subcues. The important bit here is to fade and stop at the CUE level, not the sub cue or you'll have to do it for each of the sub cues in Cue 1. Thus leaving cue 2 running which is at your reduced volume. If you wanted to get really clever you could trigger the SFR cue with a cue marker or as a timed cue say 10 seconds after the start of one of the subcues in either group. But that's further refinements.
A bit messy, and you may encounter syncronisation problems between the 2 cues. But if it's for background (like a village green or similar) it should not matter too much.
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
Hi Phil,
Thanks for those suggestions and for your suggestion in the next post. It would certainly be useful but that's not really what I want to achieve.
I'm not looking to change the overall level of a bunch of sub-cues under cue control, rather I want to do it once in the editor during the tech rehearsal. A good analogy would be the playlist cue - there is an overall level control for the playlist, then separate relative level controls for each track in the playlist.
That's what I am looking for but for a bunch of sub-cues within one top level containing cue, some of which may be playing simultaneously. Perhaps a new cue type "Audio Cue Group", which provided the overall level control slider, and allowed normal audio file sub-cues to be placed inside it?
Dave
Thanks for those suggestions and for your suggestion in the next post. It would certainly be useful but that's not really what I want to achieve.
I'm not looking to change the overall level of a bunch of sub-cues under cue control, rather I want to do it once in the editor during the tech rehearsal. A good analogy would be the playlist cue - there is an overall level control for the playlist, then separate relative level controls for each track in the playlist.
That's what I am looking for but for a bunch of sub-cues within one top level containing cue, some of which may be playing simultaneously. Perhaps a new cue type "Audio Cue Group", which provided the overall level control slider, and allowed normal audio file sub-cues to be placed inside it?
Dave
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
Dave,
I agree this is all a workaround approach and using features that a number of other replay software packages I've looked at don't have.
So using my 3rd approach - Both Cue 1 & Cue 2, with their sub cues are identical - same sub cues, same level. You then play the 1st set of sub cues through Airplane Mix loud and the 2nd set of cues through Airplane Mix soft. So now you are using 2 devices both going to the same pghysical outputs.
Then at Tech you can set the soft level for the 2nd cue on the device faders then save faders. Follow the rest of the process and it's then under cue control because you fade out Cue 1.
The 2 sets of cues you might even be able to get away with just the one and set it up as a called cue - I'd need to think about that a little though. But the advantage of that is that any changes would be reflected in both.
There is a still further 4th approach.
Download something like Reaper which you can use in trial mode for free for something like 20 days. Load all your subcues into that and create one single cue file. You're then playing just the one cue which you can use a Level Change cue against. It does mean you need to know the length or loop it.
Give me a day or 2 aand I can probably come up with a 5th approach.
Phil.
I agree this is all a workaround approach and using features that a number of other replay software packages I've looked at don't have.
So using my 3rd approach - Both Cue 1 & Cue 2, with their sub cues are identical - same sub cues, same level. You then play the 1st set of sub cues through Airplane Mix loud and the 2nd set of cues through Airplane Mix soft. So now you are using 2 devices both going to the same pghysical outputs.
Then at Tech you can set the soft level for the 2nd cue on the device faders then save faders. Follow the rest of the process and it's then under cue control because you fade out Cue 1.
The 2 sets of cues you might even be able to get away with just the one and set it up as a called cue - I'd need to think about that a little though. But the advantage of that is that any changes would be reflected in both.
There is a still further 4th approach.
Download something like Reaper which you can use in trial mode for free for something like 20 days. Load all your subcues into that and create one single cue file. You're then playing just the one cue which you can use a Level Change cue against. It does mean you need to know the length or loop it.
Give me a day or 2 aand I can probably come up with a 5th approach.
Phil.
Re: "Group" fader in a cue with audio file subcues
Phil,
Tried your first suggestion (had to use the BASS mixer to see the faders of course) and it works fine if there are only a few multi-subcue cues, so thanks for that.
I just created another one for a storm, which has 4 subcues running simultaneously - so had to add a new device. The problem with that method is that you either have to anticipate in advance which "grouped" cues will need a master fader and which won't - ad you might end up with a dozen or more; you can't add new devices on the fly during, for example, the dress rehearsal when the director sticks his head in and asks for a different level from what was set in the tech, when you have other cues to run and a script to follow.
I think something along the lines of what is done for playlist cues would be very useful, esp. if there are many cues of the type I am referring to.
Tried your first suggestion (had to use the BASS mixer to see the faders of course) and it works fine if there are only a few multi-subcue cues, so thanks for that.
I just created another one for a storm, which has 4 subcues running simultaneously - so had to add a new device. The problem with that method is that you either have to anticipate in advance which "grouped" cues will need a master fader and which won't - ad you might end up with a dozen or more; you can't add new devices on the fly during, for example, the dress rehearsal when the director sticks his head in and asks for a different level from what was set in the tech, when you have other cues to run and a script to follow.
I think something along the lines of what is done for playlist cues would be very useful, esp. if there are many cues of the type I am referring to.