Backup SCS computer

[jstaines]

I was wondering if anyone knows the best way to run a backup SCS simultaneously on a different computer. I am thinking of cueing one computer with midi from the main computer. Is there any type of networking that can be done to run both at the same time? Also, I've seen shows on Broadway that use an external trigger button to trigger sound effects. Any suggestions of what to use or how to make a simple trigger button?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Josh

[Boswell]

If I understand you correctly, use midi out from first computer to keep 2nd computer in step.
Use a USB or PS2 numeric key pad and re assign the keycodes to give a simple trigger button.

[Mike Daniell]

With Broadway shows you might find they use a separate program to control all their audio cues, eg sound board mic channel on/off, levels, etc, and also sound cues.

Another option is a KVM switch. I've never used one myself, but have a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVM_switch for info.

[Mark Johnson]

Hi Josh,

There are a number of ways of achieving what you want to do. I have experimented with 2 x SCS (1 as a backup) in 2 ways.

1) Use an external MIDI trigger via a MIDI splitter to send 'GO' to 2 SCS machines at the same time.
2) Use 2 PC's linked via MIDI with every cue on machine 1 which requires a manual start having an additional auto cue to midi trigger the second machine.

In terms of cue file management option 1) is better since you only ever have to keep 1 copy of the cue file and then edits will need to be copied to the backup machine.
I'm sure there are other ways to do this but you have to remember that because the two are not accurately syncronised there may be slight fluctuations between the two with regards to playback; identical machines would usually be recommended to keep this fluctuation to a minimum.

Also you need to remember that if you are triggering other devices (eg lighting desk) from the SCS machines you will need a MIDI switcher so that if your primary machine fails you can switch over to the backup quickly. Using a MIDI merge doesn't work since both SCS machines would send 'GO' commands to the lighting desk potentially running two cues.

In terms of triggering (or a MIDI trigger), I just used a small MIDI keyboard which can be configured with one key to act as GO and others could be SFX triggers. I did see a simple Midi 'GO'/'STOP' trigger once but just done a net search and can't find who made them.

Mike's idea about a KVM switch for the two machines (unless you're using laptops) is a good idea too to minimise the numbers of keyboards / monitors / mice you need to take.

Hope this helps.

Mark.

[Boswell]

You also need some way of quickly switching the audio outputs from the main machine to the backup, Relays?? or if you're using external USB soundcard, switching the USB over to the backup machine.
Then, what happens if your Midi stop/go trigger fails!
What happens if you get a power blip? computer reboots but you have a delay and lost the place in the que.
Its how far you want to go on redundancy and single point of failure. and how much you want to spend

[Mark Johnson]

You also need some way of quickly switching the audio outputs from the main machine to the backup, Relays?? or if you're using external USB soundcard, switching the USB over to the backup machine.
Then, what happens if your Midi stop/go trigger fails!
What happens if you get a power blip? computer reboots but you have a delay and lost the place in the que.
Its how far you want to go on redundancy and single point of failure. and how much you want to spend

True on all counts. Didn't bother with fast audio switching for my trialling (didn't eventually use 2 SCS only one and mini disk backup) just muted and unmuted preset levels on sound desk; probably good enough for most purposes.

If Midi stop/go trigger fails always have a backup! ; our example was the computer keyboard. One reason why you may not want to use KVM is that you lose independent control over the two machines so if you want to start both at the same time via the 'backup' method you can't with a KVM.

Re: Power Blip, if using laptops they have inbuild ups (sort of!!!). I always use a UPS on PC's for sound, also can smooth out dodgy power at venues. Low cost ones which do the job are available (certainly in the UK) around £100.

Like Boswell says you can go on and on with point of failure and it depends how critical it is which can only be determined by the set up and budget. Also being fair, the number of extra components you introduce to try and limit point of failure create additional possible failure points which then have to be considered. At the end of the day any electronics can fail, do you go to the expense of backup lighting desk & sound desk in case the PSU's fail ? Just depends where you stop.....

[jstaines]

Thank you all for your responses. I looked into the KVM idea and discovered this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817107702. But I think it can control only one computer at a time, maybe with a little hacking, the switch can be bypassed and just be a splitter. I am thinking a split midi trigger is the best option. I have sent some emails out to some operators who I know use a backup system. The next problem is the switching of audio between two computers. I am using a Presonus Firepod which has two Firewire connections (one of which is supposed to daisy chain 2 Firepods). I am going to try to connect two computers and use outputs 1-4 with the main computer and outputs 5-8 with the backup computer. If more than 4 channels are needed for sound effects then I will have to build some sort of matrix switcher as I can't afford a SoundWeb system I will post an update as I figure this out.

Thanks for all the help!
Josh

[Jim L.]

I built a system that has two computers, two flat panel monitors, and a 7 channel mixer, and a mini keyboard all in one case. I use a KVM switch to change between the keyboard, track ball, and the USB ports.

I have a M-Audio 410 sound card in the main computer. And a Terratec DMX 6 Fire in the backup. (Looking for another 410 for the backup) The computers are USB linked together. I make a directory for each show I do. I put all the audio files and the SCS file in it. After I get the main computer set up the way I want it, I just copy the directory to the backup computer.

Both computers and Sound Cue System programs are up and running, with the levels set. Should the something go wrong with the main computer. I just hit the KVM switch, cue to the next sound cue I need, and hit GO.

Jim

[Nick]

Most systems for the larger Musicals use a Console with it's own computer & software running a master cuelist. This sends MIDI to the two SCS computers via a MIDI Thru box of some kind. I personally don't like the backup to be in any way connected to the main computer for purposes of tracking. When we do a system without a console computer, what I have done is use a MOTU Midiexpress XT as a midi router. This has a footswitch input that can be programmed to send an appropriate message as a GO, you just plug in an appropriate button. The Midiexpress has the ability to recall several user setups, so it can easily be used as a switcher to route midi from the main or backup SCS computer to any devices that may be controlled by SCS. You can use the Midiexpress as the MIDI interface for the main computer if you like. If you have to change over, you just press the setup button on the front panel, and switch the audio and KVM. If something else is sending the GO MIDI command (a console computer or a Midi Solutions Footswitch box), you can set up the Midiexpress' internal footswitch to toggle back and forth between the MIDI patch setups for the main and backup.

We make our own switchers that change over 8,16 or 24 channels of audio, plus KVM, to select the active SCS computer, but you can achieve the same with an easily available KVM switch and two sets of channels on a mixer or similar.

Cheers,
nick

[BobCar]

If you decide to use a KVM, make sure you run a test of disconnecting one (or more) of the cables from the back of the box while the computer is running.
Some KVMs HATE THAT and will lock up your mouse & keyboard (and KEEP them locked up) until you reboot all the computers. Had this happen at work, once, and it took me ages to figure out: 1. WHAT had happened and 2. HOW to get it going again.
IF your KVM does this, simply duct tape the cables to the box so they won't accidentally get pulled out.

Bob

[jkowtko]

It seems like this is all a little overkill, no?

I have a backup PC also, simply connected to the soundboard on a different set of input channels from the primary PC, with the expectation that if the primary PC fails, we'll have to throw faders on the board, quickly position the backup PC SCS program to the correct cue, and fire it.

We've run 6 productions with 17-19 shows each, three of them musicals WITH FULL MUSIC TRACKS on SCS, and never once had a failure on the main PC.

Once or twice we had a scare that the main PC wasn't working, so the sound op threw the faders over to the backup PC and used that for the rest of the show. Turns out one of the two speaker circuits had been accidentall shut off during intermission, turning off a couple of the FX speakers. Had nothing to do with SCS or the PCs.

So, even though I have a full backup system in place (because I just don't have that much faith in Windows, and I gather I'm not alone here), in a year and a half we've rarely had the need to use it, and when we did the impact to the audience was not really noticable. We've had much more noticable incidents due to operator error (i.e. misfiring a cue).

-- John

[Mark Johnson]

Just a comment on John's last post about Windows stability, particularly XP; don't run anything on a production PC which is not required. If you can avoid running Windows Firewall, Antivirus Software and also disable any services which are not required in Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Services then that's all the better and will give you a more reliable installation.

There are a number of guides on the Internet on disabling non-essential services, however I would warn that if you don't fully understand what a service does then don't disable it ! (I've known a few people come unstuck on this one !!!). Look at what you don't need (eg networking if you always import from USB stick or CD) and disable related services.

Also disable fast user switching and use single log-on, again will make things more reliable.

Mark.

[detoneeltoren]

Quickly reading all the posts I did not find an answer to the question for a simple trigger button. So here's what I do...

It's quite simple. You buy a cheap USB numeric key pad. A 5v LED, a small housing, 1 button which fits your needs. And other tools to make your very own USB trigger.

1: open up the USB key pad, follow the ENTER key back to the chip which controls all the keys. Mark them.
Now solder 2 wires to the points where the ENTER key goes into the chip.
Remove the original LED.
Solder 2 wires to the place where your original LED was.
2: prepare your housing with holes for the GO button and LED.
3: place the GO button and LED. Solder the wires to the button and LED.
4: Put the USB connector in your PC. Check if ENTER is working on the PC.
5: If that worked out for you, close the housing.

And there it is, your very own GO Button. If you want a photo of my button, email me...

Hope this answer was helpfull

Joey Buddenberg
Technical Director
De Toneeltoren / Stage 56
The Netherlands